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Pavlos
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The Tragedy of Greece
      #2927 - Wed Mar 06 2002 07:28 PM

Victims of September 11


The Greek approach to tragedy
Helena Smith in Athens explores why the Greeks seem to have little sympathy for post-attack America
Helena Smith in Athens
Guardian Unlimited
Tuesday September 25, 2001
In the birthplace of democracy, the right to demonstrate is viewed as a hallowed tradition. In the wake of the assault on America, the Greeks have been living up to that time-honoured practice with outbursts of anti-Americanism by protestors who chant that Uncle Sam had it coming.
Last week, around 30,000 Athenian football fans attending a Uefa match against Scotland jeered throughout the minute's silence held in honour of the terror victims. The doughty Scots looked on aghast as the fans then tried to burn the Stars and Stripes in the stalls.
This week, leftist groups and labour organisations will gather in front of the neo-classical faηade of Athens University for a rally *against war*, although the event is already being billed as another chance to kick American ass.
*What goes round, comes round,* says one student, Philippos Papadopoulos, wistfully. *A lot of people died and that's a pity, but the Americans are getting a taste of what they did in Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and the like.*
International polls show the Greeks to be by far the least sympathetic of all European nations to post-attack America. Scarcely had the dust settled over the wreckage of the Twin Towers before some were saying the terrorist acts were both understandable and justifiable.
Echoing Papadopoulos, surprising numbers say they see the carnage as a classic case of retribution for all the wrongs committed over the decades by the Superpower.
Of all the Euro-Alliance nations, polls have also shown the Greeks to be the least willing to take any action against countries harbouring terrorists.
Among the many ills that Hellenes cite is America's failure to pressure some 35,000 Turkish troops to withdraw from Cyprus, 27 years after Ankara invaded and seized the island's northern third in response to an Athens-inspired coup.
That failure, they snort, is a perfect example of *American double-standards*. The reaction is mirrored in Cyprus, where one in four Greek Cypriots told the Politis newspaper last weekend that the Americans *deserved* to be targeted.
51 percent of those polled said they thought it would be wrong for Washington to retaliate because the quest for justice would almost certainly turn into one of revenge.
In private, Greek Cypriots will even go so far as to suggest that Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born militant and suspected mastermind of the attacks, had been driven to act *out of despair* over America's misguided policies in the Middle East.
*What you hear, all this logic of 'let's excuse them' is absolutely shameful,* said one Greek Cypriot civil servant, who went out of her way to contribute to the New York Firemen Victims' Fund to *let them know that not all of us think like that*.
By contrast, the governments in Athens and Nicosia have also given support to Washington with public pledges to help stamp out the *the terrorist scourge* even though, in the the case of Greece, Prime Minister Costas Simitis has said Greek troops will avoid participating in any Nato-led action.
Instead, Athens has offered to provide military facilities and airspace, while Cyprus has hinted it *won't interfere* with the Alliance making use of the two British Sovereign bases on the Near Eastern island.
It was a balancing act that both leaderships were forced to follow during the Nato bombardment of Serbia in 1999. Then, Greeks and Greek Cypriots had opposed the action against their Orthodox co-religionists by an overwhelming 92 and 97 % respectively.
In trying to understand the unusual - some would say heartless - attitude of the Greeks and Greek Cypriots, analysts point to their delicate position as citizens of two Christian buffer states at the crossroads of the East and West.
But as the home of the November 17 group - described by the US State Department as the most dangerous terrorist group currently operating in the West - Greece is also regarded as Europe's weak link in the fight against terrorism.
In the 26 years since it emerged not one member of the elusive, extreme-left organisation has ever been captured. Nor have there been any credible leads, although 22 people have been assassinated - most recently Brig. Stephen Saunders, the British defence attachι - and hundreds wounded in that time.
During the Gulf War, Greece stood out as a haven of terrorist activities with innumerable attacks against Western targets.
The embarrassing displays of anti-Americanism from a fellow Nato member have as much to do with the perceived fear of Washington now exerting *unbearable* pressure to root out November 17, analysts say.
With many now questioning Athens' ability to hold a peaceful Olympic games in 2004, Greek security measures are expected to come under close scrutiny in the coming years.
Highlighting the concern, Jaques Rogges, the recently-elected president of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) arrived in the Greek capital last night to discuss ways of how best to bolster security during the world's most cherished sporting event.


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RequiredReading
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: Pavlos]
      #2928 - Thu Mar 07 2002 02:41 AM

YOU MUST REHASH THE SAME OLD SAME OLD EVERY SO OFTEN TO KEEP THE HATE GOING, RIGHT? BE VERY CAREFUL, FOR THE WORLD KNOWS BETTER NOW!

MAYBE WHAT THEY MEAN IS THAT THEY FEEL AS BAD FOR THE INNOCENT *COLLATERAL DAMAGE* OF THE AMERICAN VICTIMS OF TERRORISM, AS THEY DO OF ALL OTHER INNOCENT *COLLATERAL DAMAGE* OF YOUR AMERICAN-SPONSORED BOMBS. WOULD THAT BE MORE CORRECT TO ANY OF YOU? OR ARE YOUR LIVES SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYBODY ELSE'S THAT YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO QUESTION YOUR BEHAVIOR AT ALL? AND PLEASE TELL ME, WHY SHOULD EVERY GREEK MOTHER'S SON HATE ENOUGH TO KILL ANY ARAB WHO HAPPENS IN HIS WAY JUST BECAUSE YOU DO?

ACTUALLY, PERSONALLY, I WISH GREECE WAS THE ONLY COUNTRY NOT TO PROSTITUTE HERSELF TO AMERICAN-JEWISH INTERESTS AND THEREFORE THE ONLY ONE ABSENT FROM THIS CONFLICT.

YOU MUST UNDERSTAND ONCE AND FOR ALL THAT THE WORLD KNOWS ABOUT YOU, AND YOU CANNOT HIDE ANY LONGER IN A COUNTRY THAT YOU WILL EVENTUALLY DESTROY AS YOU DESTROYED ALL OTHER COUNTRIES YOU LIVED IN, THROUGH HISTORY.

HOW CAN YOU BLAST GREECE SO, HOPING THAT NO ONE WILL SEE THROUGH TO YOUR MOTIVES? WEAK SECURITY IN GREECE? IT WASN'T GREECE THAT HAD THREE AIRPLANES HIGHJACKED IN ONE DAY AND TWO BUILDINGS BLOWN UP TO PIECES. HOW DOES YOUR SECURITY MEASURE UP? HOW MANY TERRORISTS ARE YOU HARBORING THAT YOU KNOW OR NOT KNOW OF IN YOUR COUNTRY? OR ARE WE QUESTIONING ONLY WHAT SUITES US AND FORGETING WHAT DOES NOT? THE MORE YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE INVISIBLE, THE QUICKER PEOPLE WILL SEE YOU FOR WHAT YOU ARE.

ACTUALLY, I HAVE FAITH IN YOUR CHILDREN. THEY WILL BE THE ONES TO LOOK WITH THEIR EYES OPEN AND STOP THIS AGE-OLD KILLING BEHAVIOR OF YOURS, BECAUSE YOUR CHILDREN ARE THE REAL AMERICANS, AND I HAVE FAITH IN REAL AMERICANS. YOU WILL NOT LIKE IT, BUT IT WILL HAPPEN. IT HAS ALREADY BEGUN IN THE MINDS OF YOUR YOUNG.



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halfelf
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: RequiredReading]
      #2929 - Thu Mar 07 2002 06:08 AM

I agree with 'required reading'. I am very concerned that a quality paper like the Guardian provides a platform for Helena Smith's idiotic comments. She has an obvious anti-Greek agenda which is both unjustifiable and damaging, not only for the way our country is viewed in the anglo-saxon world but for journalism as a profession. HS lacks even a basic grasp of the complexities of Greek politics and society. You don't need to be an expert on terrorism or diplomacy to see how ridiculous her claims are. Frankly, if I were British I would find her comments deeply embarassing. This woman (presumably) grew up in Britain where terrorist attacks are so commonplace that all public litter bins have been banned in fear of them being used as containers for bombs and ignition mechanisms. Where the underground system is routinely brought to a standstill because of the countless daily bomb threats. Where left packages are immediately and panickingly 'destroyed'. If you want to experience a country in the grip of terrorism go home Helena. It is not Greece, but you, who is the weakest link. Goodbye.

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Patriot
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: halfelf]
      #2930 - Thu Mar 07 2002 09:13 PM

Required Reading
I am sorry, but the truth hurts. You cannot deny that, nor the majority of the Greek peoples reaction to September 11 as being deplorable..
In retrospect I have come to one conclusion... The hatred towards America does not stem from the bombing of Milosevic(That in itself is an argument) nor the rightful anger over Cyprus..... but stems from America's alliance with Israel. Greek people are extremely , in the strongest sense of the word, anti-semitic. (This cannot be denied). I have thought about this alot and I really cannot find a reason why. Maybe you can enlighten me? I do know, however, many reasons to hate the Arab or Islamic people if you are Greek. (Ottoman empire, Turkey, etc.). Not that I am condoning hatred, personally I do not hate anyone, but I can comprehend that certain hatred among the less educated, or racist Greeks.
One last question.... Would the Greek mothers send out their son's to kill Jews?


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SVATS
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: Patriot]
      #2931 - Thu Mar 07 2002 09:48 PM

Namaste pali edw Andrea

Karafliasa

Re mania pou tin exoun merikoi me tous Ellines kai i plaka einai oti lene pws einai kai Ellines (kapou kapou)

An miliseis enantia ston polemo einai kako Patriot?

Giati kathe senario sou exei sinexeia to idio thema?
Ti tha ekanan oi Ellines an? kai an? kai an?
Oi Ellines kata tin krisi sou einai enantia twn evrewn klp klp klp.

Loipon opios tolmisei na peira3ei tin Ellada eite einai Evreos eite Gallos eite pordoklanos tha tou ga...... katalaves?

Oi Ellines den misoun kanena, apla vlepoun merikes adikies kai exoun to tharos kai to kouragio na tis lene.

Se dimokratikes xwres zoume, elefteria tou logou iparxei boreis kai esy na exeis tin diki sou apopsi Patriot ( an den sou to exoun pei) this is not a one way street.



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SVATS
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: SVATS]
      #2932 - Thu Mar 07 2002 09:54 PM

aaaaa kai kati pou 3exasa

eftixws pou ta mesa enimerwsis den anaferan pws ta aeroplana pou xtipisan tous pirgous eixan ta3idepsei prin 3 xronia stin Ellada.

pws sas 3efyge afto re pedia?

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Patriot
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: SVATS]
      #2933 - Thu Mar 07 2002 10:32 PM

My response SVATS is to required reading's answers, and not my own subject matter. I am not criticizing here, I have an opinion and a theory based on many discussions. I am not claiming it is the truth, or that you should agree with it, but I am not required to agree with yours nor req. reading's
Save the sarcasm SVATS it is not appropriate here. I also resent the fact the you think that my comments are spoonfed from somewhere or someone else. Do I not have a mind of my own? That is extremely disrespectful.In my opinion you are deflecting my questions and opinions with accusations that are unfounded.
One more thing..... are Greeks not capable of misos? You truly believe they speak out for the sole purpose of reversing adikies out of bravery and kouragio? Are there no other people in this world that are shivalrous?
Once again greater than thou attitude that clouds the mind and makes people hallucinate.
Tell me, Greece's sh*t don't stink?
Svats be truthful now and answer my questions, not combative but truthful.
There is a large anti-semitic attitude amongst Greeks, and that is not representative only of Greeks in Greece but of Greek-Americans in the U.S. as well.


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SVATS
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: Patriot]
      #2934 - Fri Mar 08 2002 12:19 AM

Patriot
first I have to say that part of my message was for you and most of it for requiredreading I just forgot t type that name.

Long time ago someone asked me if I have seen a communist

I said yes, sure I have seen many.
and then he said to me
- you are wrong, you haven't seen anyone.

By the way this guy was a jew and a very good friend of mine.

If you look in Usa and many other countries Greeks hang around with (mostly) with Italian or Jews (in America it's a fact).

Greeks get along with anybody and I don't believe a thing when we say Greeks are antisemitic etc.
We are just smarter or at least this is what we like to think.
People like required reading or americarules and even you to my opinion could be the ones who like to create trouble and start a propaganda about Greeks and Greece in General because they are not Greeks.
They have used this forum to pass on their propaganda and some people fall in the trap.

or they are just chickens who hide behind their finger by using anonymus and many names
to pass on their ideas.

I come in this forum because I left Greece when I was very young.
I Enjoy all the postingsabout Hellenic History (Glorious)I enjoy users like Leniw and others and I sit and read everything they say because they have a point.
I usually answerback to you in a sarcastic way but I don't know if it's the same person i am talking to all the time.
I could use you name and post if I felt like it.
You don't even speak Greek how can you say anything about Greece?

and at last
So what if Greeks think that America is wrong at some things? Is this that bad?
We both know that Greece belongs to the west no matter what. We both know that Greece is a true friend and a very good ally.
ewhy blame Greece then?
If you talked about the hospital system in Greece or their politicians I will join your thoughts but talking about some 10-20 punks at a soccer game or someone who heard you speak Greek with a hilliebilly accent and gave you the VELONA just to brake your balls does not make Greece a bad friend.

Greece has proven to be a good ally in many wars and lost thousands of souls.
Also Greece was betrayed by it's allies in 1974.
Thanx to mr Kissinger and others
Now is this an antisimitic post? we can't use or say jew anymore? instantly is antisemitic?

Greece has to fight and we fight everyday because our friends and allies try to change our History.

Cleopatra was black, Alexander was a Yugo, Thalis o Milisios was an Arab, want me to say more?

So who is this enemy? who does this propaganda?
Why Greeks shouldn't get Upset when our allies call Fyrom - macedonia

and at last whenthey make us all upset they set people like you to come and talk about antisemitism.
Will Greek mothers tell their sons......
how stupid just even to think about it.

Come On!!!!!

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Required Reading
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: SVATS]
      #2935 - Fri Mar 08 2002 12:21 AM

No, Greece's s**t doesn't stink. At least not anymore than America's s**t does.

And may I ask why there is a problem if there is an anti-Semitic feeling in Greece? At least the Greeks are not hurting the Jews, no matter how they feel about them. Can you say the same about the Semites?

Why is your problem with the Germans and not with the Jews? Today the Jews are behaving toward the Arabs worse than the Nazis did toward them. Are we supposed to not talk about it? The Arabs are human, just like us. They are educated, loving, friendly people. They have no armies, no military to go to *war* with, no Hollywood or television to sing their praises. They live and die under our bombs most of them never even knowing why. They are the underdogs. Greece and Greeks always develop affinity with the underdog. We have worn those shoes and we know how tight they feel. And unlike the Jews, we learn lessons from our history.

I know you don't want to hear this, because in your other post you actually said that we have good reasons to hate the Arabs. That really showed where your mind and heart are and who has filled them with hate, no matter what you say, or how much you deny it. But although you would like it very much if we hated the Arabs just like you do, we are smarter than that. The Arabs don't threaten us or try to manipulate us. We are not easily manipulated, not even by Jews, and I think that's what you most dislike about us. We, the Greeks, are raining on your parade, aren't we?

So, you tell me: Why is it that the Jews are the only ones who are allowed to hate everybody but they are not prejudiced? Why are they the only people who are good enough to feel pain? Why are the Germans who spoke up and helped the Jews in the 40s heroes, but those of us who speak up for the Arabs are traitors? Should we just leave the Jews alone to keep killing as they please? They should be allowed, right? Because they are better than us, right? God's chosen people? Self proclaimed kings and queens of the Universe?

Well, see, there lies the problem: ONLY THEY BELIEVE THAT! We don't.

So, ask them to stop hating and hurting everybody else and maybe some of that hate will not rub off on them.

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halfelf
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: Required Reading]
      #2936 - Fri Mar 08 2002 05:04 AM

Once again, I am in agreement with required reading.
It is unfortunate that Greek Americans seem to have a very strictly conditioned view of world affairs and can not begin to understand the Greeks who live in Greece. In Greece we can access much more balanced information, and we are thus more open-minded. In a way I am sorry for this because it creates a gulf with our American counterparts.
Before the holocaust the Jews thrived in Greece. Go and ask around in Thessaloniki to find out how important and powerful and well-integrated the Jewish community was in that city. There are many museums and archives that pay tribute to the Jews of Thessaloniki. It was not the Greeks but the Nazis who put such a violent end to all that.
But today the Jews of the U.S. are the most racist, bigotted and oppressive minority. I am saying that matter-of-factly. They just are. And it makes absolute sense in terms of their religion and history. You don't need to be a genius to realise that their attitude might create some problems with thinking people everywhere...


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to agnost theo
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: halfelf]
      #2937 - Fri Mar 08 2002 11:20 PM

One last question.... Would the Greek mothers send out their son's to kill Jews?


What a question?

I have a lot of Jewish friends that fortunately are not like you. You are trying to spread hate and defame Greeks. This is what you trying to do. In the USA, where I live, Greeks are not anti simitic. We live side by side with no problem and no hate. Go vist the Jewish Holocaust museum in Washinghton DC, where you will also see how Greeks helped the Jews. And how much the Greeks did for the Jews in the 40's. I know as a fact how much they did.
Go the hell and put your propaganda in another place.

From now on I will just ignore your postings and I hope they same does everyone on this board.

Please do not bite on his bait.

Same on you. Patriot (s**t) Aisxos.

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filos
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: to agnost theo]
      #2938 - Fri Mar 08 2002 11:54 PM

exw kai egw pollous ebreous filous, pio pollous apo ellines alla na ksereis ena pragma. Oi ebraioi tha se taisoun an pas sto
spiti tous tha se taisoun sti doulia( einai xaraktiristiko tous na taizoun ayto de tous to pairneis einai oi pio kaloi se touto)
tha se proslaboun stis doulies tous idiws emas toys Ellines mas theloun giati gnwrizoun kala tin apodosi mas, alla otan elthi i wra na paroune apofaseis gia themata pou aforoun ton proypologismo tis eterias toys..sou erxetai mia eidisi apo ekei pou de to perimenes oti eparthisan oi apofaseis.

einai de eygenestatoi kai gnwrizoun poli kala tous nomous..apo tous kaliterous dikigorous stin ameriki.
Pote den sizitoun kata twn Ellinwn opws emeis.
Alla an tous rotiseis idiws tous thriskebomenous gia toys Ellines tha sou thimisoun ta palia xwris misos alla katalabaineis oti einai peiragmenoi pou estw kai merikoi apo aytous eksellinisthikan kapote. De to adexoun wrismenes ebraikes omades oti oi idioi ekselinisthikan kapote.
Mporeis na sizitas meres giaytous.

Ena einai sigouro oti de bgenoun oute se Forum na sizitane ayta poy sizitame emeis giaytous..ekei tous theorw pio eksipnous.
Oi diafores mas mazi toys einai ideologikes kai oxi ratsistikes. Exoun boithisei de arketous metanastes opou tous pernaei.
San akadimaikoi einai oi perissoteroi poli kaloi.

Mi ksexnate omws oti kai aytoi exoun ti mizeria pou exoume kai emeis polles fores.
Isws einai ypoleima tis palias epidermidas pou exoume kai oi dio.
Ekeinoi isxirognomones kai to lene kai oi idioi emeis egwistes.




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Patriot
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: filos]
      #2939 - Fri Mar 08 2002 09:36 PM

Hold on here people I said nothing of the Greeks in the U.S., if you read my first post carefully it is a direct response to required reading.....please read his post carefully....then read my response you will get my jist. I am trying to explain the reason of anti -americanism in greece and associate it with their alliance with Israel, thus also explaining an affinity to the Arab world. I never said I hated Arabs or anyone should for that matter, again read carefully, I said that I can understand a hatred more for the muslims because we have been conditioned to hate the turks, who took Constantinople away and so on.... but notice I mentioned the poorly educated and truly racist, not the majority.
I too have many friends who are of jewish faith, in fact I live next to a synogogue....and I know many Greek-Americans who are friends , in business or even married to jews, in fact my first cousin is. There is no question of America's racial intergration...... now Greece is another story...... You all know when you go to Greece how alot of people curse the Jews for *running the world, America* so on and so on.....Just read the various posts in this thread and others as well, I have come across many anti-semitic responses, the proof is in the pudding. Now all of a sudden when people are exposed(in these forums) they try to deny any wrongdoing. And by the way I do not mean all Greeks in Greece. There are many exceptions.


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konstantinos
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: Patriot]
      #2940 - Fri Mar 08 2002 09:54 PM

Patriot,

to misos twn ellinwn kata twn ebraiwn arxise me ti dixotomisi tis Kyprou. Ola ayta giati o Kissinger itan o aytourgos toutou tou eglimatos. Akomi epeidi i oli ipothesi aforouse basika to israil aeroplana pou eprepe na perasoun panw apo ti Kupro gia Israil klp efere ti dixonia.

Alla isws sou diafevgei oti o dimarxos athinaiwn Abramopoulos exei steilei ena pelwrio roloi doro sti poli twn Ierosolimwn kai epanilimena exoun prosklithei oi arxirabinoi tous stin Ellada.
I de kibernisi exei kanei polla mnimonia gia to olokaytoma twn ebrewn tis Thessalonikis.

Thelw omws na sou oti o antisimitismos einai ena fainomeno monimo kai stin Ameriki.
Giati de les to aiwnio misos twn ebraiwn kai
mayrwn tis Amerikis. An zeis Nea Yorki tha ksereis isws oti sto Brooklyn skotonontai oi Ebraioi me tous mayrous. De tha anaferw twra apo pou ksekinaei ayti i fagomara apo palia oi rizes tis apo Portogalia sklabeborio klp pou de legontai edo mesa alla kai apo discrimination pou ekanan oi ebraioi stous mayrous. Oute gia fournarides den tous epairnan na doulepsoun as min ta anamasame
giati brwmane.

Twra ginetai kati na ta ftiaksoun aytes oi dio ratses kai prospathoun mesa apo ta sxoleia ta panepistimia na kanoun to mauro aspro.

Koitaw psila Patriot ftinw to theo.
Kitaw xamila ftinw ta podia mou



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Patriot
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Re: The Tragedy of Greece [Re: konstantinos]
      #2941 - Fri Mar 08 2002 10:03 PM

All your examples are either politics among politicians, or isolated incidents. I am talking about the laos , the majority, what are their beliefs. If you live in New york you also know how badly some Ellines talk about the ebraoi, mauroi ect. But those are the old timers, the newer generations are much more educated, understanding, and inquisitive about different cultures.

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